Jess:
Kia ora, my name is Jess. I'm from the External Communications team here at the FMA, and you're joining me for another episode of Jess Learns to Invest. Today, we're going to be talking all about ethical investing - what it is and how you can incorporate it into your investing strategy. I'm here talking to Victoria Harris from The Curve. The Curve is an investing platform for women to learn all about money, finances, and how to incorporate investing in a way that works for them. Thanks, Vic, for joining me today. Lovely to meet you.
Victoria Harris:
Thank you, Jess. Lovely to meet you too. Thanks for having me. I'm very honoured to talk about this topic—it's very dear to my heart. So yes, thanks for having me.
Jess:
Thanks for joining so late! It’s in the evening for you and early morning for me. To kick off, could you talk a little bit about your background—how you fell into the financial world—and then we can get into ethical investing: what it is and how it works.
Victoria Harris:
Yes, you're pretty spot on I really did fall into it. I knew nothing about finance at university. I was really good at business during school, business studies, accounting, economics, I found it all really fascinating. Then I got to university and was literally like, “What is this finance paper?” I stumbled into a lecture on it and absolutely loved it. I could really see how practical it was. A lot of things at university are quite theoretical, but this was very practical. We had real-life examples and I thought, “Oh, I get it. I like this.” I just really enjoyed it.
From there, I joined Milford Asset Management straight out of university, one of the biggest fund managers in New Zealand. I started as an analyst, analysing companies, looking at what they do, how they operate, their financials, and then moved into a portfolio manager role, deciding where to invest clients’ money and helping it grow over time.
That led me to work with a few other fund management companies in New Zealand before deciding to set up The Curve and educate women about investing. One of the stark things I noticed was not only the lack of females in the finance industry, but also the lack of information that spoke to women, my community and my friends. So yes, we started The Curve to help educate a broader range of people when it comes to investing.
Jess:
Awesome. And I love starting these episodes by learning about your investing journey. When did you start investing? I’ve only just started getting into it now, in my late 20s, so I’m always intrigued when people say they started really young. I’m just like, how did you get into it?
Victoria Harris:
Firstly, congrats on starting in your late 20s! There are people who still haven’t started, or who keep putting it off and suddenly five years have passed. So congrats on even starting and being interested.
I was very fortunate to have a very astute mother who got me interested in investing when I was about eight years old. She bought shares in Contact Energy for me and my sister. At eight, I had no idea what Contact Energy was. But I remember getting cheques in the mail and putting them in the bank. I thought, “Oh my gosh, this is great, I don’t need to do chores, the money just arrives!”
That was my basic understanding of investing at the time, but it sowed the seed for learning more. The cheques were dividends from the shares we owned in Contact Energy. It’s actually a great story because investing can be that simple, and that’s why we do it: to create that extra revenue stream or diversify our income.
At some point in life, we’ll want those cheques rolling in the door. It’s quite crazy how that’s how my investing journey started. From there, my mum educated me on what it was, Contact Energy is the company that powers our homes—and it all made sense.
Yeah, so all those little things started to to sow that seed, but then more seriously got into investing. Not until probably after university. And obviously having you know when you're university student, you have a lot of, there's a lot of other priorities that you want to spend your money on. So I thought more seriously about investing in my early 20s. And yeah, I just, I just love it. I love that every day you know, the stock market throws up new opportunities for you to invest in. Things happen in the news and the economy like it's, I feel like it's it's a passion that I'm learning a lot about every single day and. Yeah. Now being able to take what I've learned and educate other women, it's just like. It's yeah, I definitely found my purpose in terms of what I wanna, what I wanna do in life. Yeah.
Jess:
Yeah, I love that. That's such a great story that you've learned so young as well. And probably had no idea what it was that you were getting.
Victoria Harris:
I wasn't sitting there with the pool of knowledge. You know, it was like the yeah, it was my first foray into everything was was pretty pretty basic, but yeah.
Jess:
But I love that message of it can be simple once you've set it up like, because that's the thing that puts people off. I think is that it's going to be too hard, too complicated, too many steps to take.
Victoria Harris:
100%.
Jess:
So, Ethical Investing—what is it? I spoke to Natalie Ferguson from Powrsuit, and she was talking all about investing in companies you love and already buy products from. I was reflecting on that and thought, “Shoot, I don’t even know if the products I love and the companies I buy from are ethical.” I mean, sometimes I buy makeup and pharmaceuticals, and I know they don’t test on animals, but with clothing and other stuff, I was like, “Shoot, I actually don’t know.” So, what is ethical investing?
Victoria Harris:
Yeah, and I think that’s a really good starting point, like the whole makeup thing. I know my makeup brands don’t test on animals, and that’s a really good starting point because you’re being an ethical consumer, right? And it’s no different being an ethical investor. When we invest in companies, we’re essentially voting for that company to grow and succeed in the future. We’re voting with our wallet—giving them money to help them grow and continue their success.
When you combine the concept of investing with your ethics or values, you want to align the money you’re giving with companies that reflect your values. Also, there’s often a discrepancy—many people, like yourself, might say, “I’m not going to purchase this makeup because it’s tested on animals,” but they might not realise they’re actually investing in that company through their KiwiSaver or another fund.
Jess:
Yeah.
Victoria Harris:
So, it’s about having a full overview of your spending, saving, and investing—where your money is going. Money is power and opportunity. When you give it to these companies, it’s a big tick saying, “I want to invest in you because my values align with yours.” Traditional investing is just about returns—you’re not necessarily concerned with what the company does. It could be a company that tests on animals, an oil and gas company, or one that profits from gambling. It doesn’t matter—you just want the maximum return.
But over the years, people have become more clued up and interested in making sure their lifestyle choices match their investments. So yes, it’s about aligning those values.
Jess:
I love that. So, I’m intrigued to know—why do people do it? What’s the benefit of investing ethically? Because, like you said, it’s not just about performance—it’s about values. Or can it be both? I feel like it’s not necessarily true that if you invest ethically, you won’t see a return.
Victoria Harris:
Yeah, I guess I should have said—ethical investing is about wanting a return, but also looking beyond that. You’re wanting two things in one, whereas traditional investing is just about growth. People choose ethical investing because it aligns with their values, and I think that’s becoming really important—especially in today’s world where there’s so much going on politically, economically, and in business. There’s so much news and awareness, and we can make decisions based on our values and actions.
So, the main reason people invest ethically is values alignment—they want to walk the talk. If you’re voting with your wallet when you shop, why wouldn’t you do the same when you invest?
The second reason is performance and risk. Ethical investing can be a way to future-proof your investments. Companies that ignore climate risks or diversity issues might face scandals or be negatively impacted by adverse events that harm their profits. So, there’s a future-proofing aspect to ethical investing.
Jess:
Yeah.
Victoria Harris:
And usually, ethical investing involves growth industries—like clean energy, electric vehicles—industries that are doing quite well and are quite advanced. Then there’s also a third factor: the psychological aspect. There’s a peace of mind that comes from knowing your investments reflect your values. That also creates motivation—people are often more engaged in their investments. You’re not blindly giving your money to someone without knowing where it’s invested or what companies you’re supporting. supporting. And it's actually having any kind of a bit more of an active involvement in where you are investing and what your money and where your money is going. Yeah, exactly.
Jess:
Your money is going. Yeah. Awesome. And could you talk to me about what is, what does ESG cause I see keep seeing that terminology come up and I don't even know.
Victoria Harris:
What it means? Yeah. I feel like it's. I feel like it's kind of it's it's like it used to be talked about a lot and it used to be kind of the poster child terms, ethical investing. And I feel like it's kind of got a bit like, uncool to be uncool, like or, you know, like it's if people have kind of, I think we've evolved. Sorry. Yeah, probably a better word to, you know, we've evolved since then. And it was like. With ESG investing, which means environmental, so things like climate impact, energy use, waves pollution, like anything sort of environment comes under the E then we've got social. So think of like how the how, how a company might treat its staff, its customers, its community. All of those things come under the social ethic and in governance, which is like board diversity doesn't have. Different ages, genders, ethnicities on the board. Does it pay its executive team like exorbitant amounts, or is it actually, you know, fear and being like transparency and stuff like that? So the ES&G like those were kind of the three buckets of things were lumped into, and it was kind of like a like a measuring. Bacteria like OK, do you take your E do you take your eyes? Do you take your G? OK, you do. OK, cool. You're you're, uh, you're, you know, responsible company or sustainable company or an ethical company. Whatever. You kinda wanna call it and we can now invest in you whereas I think. Companies cottoned on to that a bit and we're like, OK, cool. We just need to take these three buckets. Essentially I mean.
Jess:
Ohh yeah.
Victoria Harris:
People used to think, “If I invest ethically, people will think I’m a good person.” But I think we’ve evolved since then and realised that everyone has different values and ethics.
Jess:
Yeah, it’s not a tick-box exercise.
Victoria Harris:
Exactly. What you might want to support, I might not—because our values differ. So it’s less about morals and ethics now, and more about risk and performance. For example, is this company de-risked because it ticks certain boxes?
Rather than just looking at surface-level metrics, it’s about digging deeper—does this company truly align with my values? Take an oil company like Shell or BP. They might score highly on ESG because of the systems and processes they’ve put in place. Environmentally, they’re improving year on year, even though they started from a place of massive environmental impact. They might treat their staff well (the ‘S’), and have diverse boards (the ‘G’). But fundamentally, their business is still about drilling into the earth. So while they tick the ESG boxes, from a values perspective, I personally wouldn’t want to invest in them.
Jess:
Yeah.
Victoria Harris:
It’s a tricky one for beginners too. ESG used to be the box-tick for “good company,” but I think we’ve evolved beyond that now.
Jess:
So it’s important for new investors to know that if they see ESG terminology, they should look a little deeper into the company and see if it aligns with their own values?
Victoria Harris:
Yes, exactly. And it is a good starting point—especially if you’re just beginning and feeling overwhelmed. Trying to find companies that align with your values or ethics can be daunting. So don’t get hung up on finding the “perfect” ethical company. ESG-labelled companies or funds are a good starting point.
Jess:
Yeah, cool. So how would new investors find out if companies are ethical? Like when you’re just starting out on different investing platforms, how do you actually figure that out?
Victoria Harris:
For beginners, probably the easiest way is to start with ETFs—especially ones that have ESG in the title. You might see names like “Global ESG ETF” or ones labelled “sustainable” or “responsible.” Those keywords are helpful. ETFs are a great starting point.
Pretty much every company can claim to be ethical in some way, but everyone’s ethics are different. That can create confusion and complexity, which is the last thing you want when you’re just starting out. Even if there are companies in those ETFs that you don’t fully agree with, they’re still a good entry point.
Jess:
Yes.
Victoria Harris:
They’re not perfect, but they’re a really good starting point. There are also some great tools—like Mindful Money, for example. It’s a fantastic resource for new investors trying to figure out if a fund is ethical or responsible.
Jess:
Oh cool!
Victoria Harris:
You can type in your KiwiSaver fund, or any fund in New Zealand, and it’ll show you what they invest in. It categorises things like weapons, carbon emissions, and other areas. That can be really helpful for beginner investors.
Jess:
Yeah, I was going to ask about that—if there are tools that help screen the process for you. Because I imagine you can’t just go to a company’s website and find that info. So it’s great to know there are tools out there.
Victoria Harris:
Yeah, exactly. The thing with tools like Mindful Money is that they’ve decided what they consider ethical. That might not align with you or me, but it’s still a really good starting point. Everyone’s going to be different.
I even remember about six years ago, at one of my old firms, we invested in Restaurant Brands—which owns KFC, Pizza Hut, and Starbucks. Someone stood up and said, “How dare you invest in a company that sells such unhealthy food!” I was quite young and new to the industry, and it was my first real confrontation with ethical investing.
It's it's quite. I don't know. It was. A very, very successful company back in the day for for for New Zealand, for their.
Jess
Yeah, they owned heaps of brands aye?
Victoria Harris:
Yeah, and so it was like, OK, well, if we cut out that one… but then also, on the flip side, what about all the jobs they’ve created in communities? There are stores all over the country. So you kind of have to figure out where your line is, I guess. And that’s the thing with Mindful Money—it might not be perfect. You might look at a KiwiSaver fund you want to invest in and see it includes a little bit of gambling, but it scores really well on other things. So you know what? I’m OK with that.
Jess:
That’s a good point. I love that you bring it up because it’s almost saying there’s no right or wrong way to do it—everyone’s different. For that woman, the fact they were selling unhealthy food was a no-go. But for you, the company treats its staff well and pays them fairly—that’s more valuable to someone else.
Victoria Harris:
Exactly. If a fund or ETF says, “This is what we think is ethical, and this is what’s in the fund,” you can either go with it or not. If you’re absolutely against it, then you’ll need to go away and do your own research to find companies that explicitly align with your values. That can be time-consuming and exhausting for a beginner investor. So it’s about figuring out what you’re willing to accept, because it’s probably not going to be absolutely perfect.
And companies change, right? Take Volkswagen—everyone thought it was a great company, and then it came out that they’d been falsifying emissions reports. From the outside, they looked great, and then overnight, everything changed.
Jess:
That’s wild.
Victoria Harris:
It’s just part and parcel of investing. You’re only as good as the information you have—the public information.
Jess:
Yeah, absolutely.
Victoria Harris:
Exactly.
Jess:
That’s such a good point. It’s always evolving and changing, right? So you just have to adapt as you go.
Victoria Harris:
And companies are getting better—and some are getting worse. Some are saying, “Right, we’re going to reduce fossil fuel use and invest in clean energy projects.” Others are pulling back on those commitments. So companies continue to evolve and change over time. A company you dismissed a while ago could now have changed its practices and policies and be miles ahead of others.
I don’t want to make it harder than it already is for someone to understand and get started. So it’s great that platforms like Mindful Money are out there. MoneyHub is another good one—they’ve got a great guide.
Jess:
Oh, that’s going to help people pick out options, yeah?
Victoria Harris:
Yes, they’ve got a comprehensive guide on different KiwiSaver schemes, ETFs, and managed funds. Those are probably two really good resources to start with.
Jess:
Yeah, because for beginner investors, there’s a lot to think about. You’ve got to choose what type of investment you want to go for—and then there’s this ethical layer on top. But I think it’s important to know that you can still just start and learn as you go. That’s a really important message.
Victoria Harris:
Exactly, yeah.
Jess:
Are there any industries you’d suggest beginners avoid? Like, you’ve said a company might not tick every box, but are there specific industries that are probably best to steer clear of? Or is it more about individual companies within those industries?
Victoria Harris:
I think the big obvious ones are fossil fuels—oil, gas, coal. They’re being heavily criticised at the moment because of global warming. Another big bucket would be tobacco—there aren’t many tobacco companies listed anymore. Weapons and defence is another one.
Jess:
Yeah.
Victoria Harris:
That one’s a bit controversial. Yes, there are weapons that definitely shouldn’t exist, but then there’s the defence side. I remember we ran a big campaign when the Russia–Ukraine war broke out. It was like, OK, you don’t want to invest in companies that create weapons, but then you only want to support companies creating weapons for one side of the war, not the other. It sparked a lot of debate.
Gambling is another one—for obvious reasons. It’s a drain on society and highly addictive. Alcohol is probably a bit more controversial too. I remember we had a lot of debate in our team years ago around that. Like, if we’re going to go out and have a drink on the weekend, then that’s a personal choice. Should our investing align with our values? If we’re drinking but not investing in alcohol, how does that weigh up?
Jess:
Yeah, good point.
Victoria Harris
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's some kind of. There was a bit of debate in the team with that one. Another one is like entertainment. That's. I mean, there's very few listed companies. Fast fashion is one that's actually been had a bit more debates. Yeah, there's a like effect.
Jess
Yeah, that's. It must be. Growing as well, it's a massive industry.
Victoria Harris
Victoria Harris:
Yeah, and the fashion industry has a huge impact on the climate. It contributes significantly to climate change and emits a lot of pollution. It’s part of a broader conversation about consumerism in general, but fashion—especially fast fashion—has definitely received more attention lately.
It’s a good thing that these companies are being talked about and held accountable. It’s in the news, it’s part of public discourse, and that shows ethical investing is gaining momentum. It’s not just a fleeting trend—it’s here to stay. I genuinely believe that fast fashion wasn’t even something people talked about 10 or 15 years ago.
Jess:
No, yeah.
Victoria Harris:
Now we’ve got huge global companies wanting to list, and there’s public pressure helping these businesses transition to having a better impact on the environment. So yes, we are voting with our wallets, and it’s actually making a difference.
Jess:
Yeah, it’s an important and interesting point about fast fashion. I mean, it’s so cheap and everyone’s kind of doing it. Sometimes it’s hard to stop and take a second to ask, “Why are they doing that?” And yeah, as you say, thinking with your wallet is quite important—what are they actually doing behind the scenes?
Victoria Harris:
Exactly. It’s like that quote: “It’s only one straw,” said 2 billion people. When we were getting rid of plastic straws, people thought, “Oh, it’s just my KiwiSaver, it’s nothing,” or “I’ve only got a small amount, I’m not going to move the needle.” But if everyone has that mentality, nothing changes. Your dollar does make a difference.
Jess:
Those dollars add up—absolutely.
Victoria Harris:
And how cool is it that you’re actually making a difference? I think that’s the exciting part.
Jess:
You touched on this a little bit at the start, but I’m keen to unpack it a bit more—the performance aspect. How does ethical investing perform compared to traditional investing?
Victoria Harris:
Yeah, this has been a very heated debate. Some people believe you can’t make money from ethical investing, while others believe you absolutely can. I personally believe—and have seen numerous studies—that even ESG investing early on was able to produce returns that were either better than or in line with traditional investing. That means we can have profits and still do good.
Now, prices rise when demand outweighs supply. Early on, ethical investing was quite niche and didn’t have much momentum. But now, more and more people want to invest ethically—not just for profit, but for purpose. So there’s going to be more money flowing into companies that align with common values and ethics. That demand drives up share prices, which means returns will follow.
Jess:
Right.
Victoria Harris:
It’s all about supply and demand. And there’s a wall of demand—especially as younger generations become bigger participants in the stock market. Gen Z is far more vocal about ethics than millennials or baby boomers. So there’s a real need for companies to either step up or ship out.
Fast fashion companies, for example—I genuinely think they won’t have the demand from investors to support share price growth. If you look at it at an individual company level, and then bucket it into ethical investing, companies that align with the most common values will, by default, perform better than traditional ones.
Jess:
Yeah.
Victoria Harris:
It becomes a cycle. Those companies will be flooded with capital, while others won’t attract investment. They won’t be able to grow, take on new projects, or expand into new markets. They’ll get smaller and smaller.
You can definitely have ethical investments that perform as well as traditional ones. But even within that, there are companies that will and won’t perform well. It’s not a blanket rule that all ethical investments will succeed. Some companies might be poorly run and won’t be good investments—so it’s not a broad stroke.
Jess:
Yeah, but it comes back to why you’re investing, right? If you’re doing it just for money, then maybe you care a little less. But if you’re doing it because of your values, then it doesn’t matter so much—you’re in it for the long term.
Victoria Harris:
Exactly. And I genuinely think we’ll get to a point where ethical investing just becomes investing. Hopefully in my lifetime, all companies will have to operate ethically, and we won’t even need to have this discussion.
Jess:
Yeah, ethical investing won’t even be a term—it’ll just be investing. That’d be great.
Victoria Harris:
Exactly. Just investing. Probably a new term we haven’t even heard of yet.
Jess:
Yeah, yeah—it’s always an acronym. There’ll be a new acronym.
Victoria Harris:
Exactly. The finance world loves acronyms.
Jess:
And what are some of the risks? Because there are risks with all types of investing. What should newbies be aware of?
Victoria Harris:
Yeah, I briefly mentioned that companies change all the time. There are risks in investments that you might not be aware of until it’s too late—like fraud, for example. Unfortunately, we often don’t find out until it’s already happened.
More broadly, some risks come from your own choices. For example, if you decide not to support AI or any tech companies involved in AI because you believe it could harm the future, the trade-off is that many of those companies are currently performing very well. You have to be comfortable with your investments not doing as well because of your ethical stance.
There can be periods where unethical sectors or companies do really well, and you have to be OK with that. There were times when oil and gas companies performed strongly, while clean energy companies didn’t. So it’s about accepting that your chosen investments might not always outperform others.
Victoria Harris:
I think that’s probably the biggest one, actually—just being OK with missing out on certain returns. Like Warren Buffett, for example. He said, “I’m never investing in tech companies because I don’t understand them.” It wasn’t an ethical stance, but it’s a good example. He just didn’t get it.
Jess:
No, yeah—I don’t get it either.
Victoria Harris:
These crazy tech companies were doing really well, and they’ve done well for the last 10 years. But he missed out on all those returns, and he was fine with that. He said, “There are going to be things I don’t understand.” So if you’re firm on saying, “Oil and gas companies are a hard no,” or “AI companies are a hard no for me,” then it’s just about being comfortable with that. If they do well for a period of time, you’ve stuck to your values—and that’s great. Just be aware there could be short-term trade-offs. But I think over the long term, it’ll even out.
Jess:
Do you have any tips for someone trying to balance their financial goals and their values? Because yeah, we’ve all got big dreams—and money’s great to have. Any advice?
Victoria Harris:
Yes—start by sitting down and identifying your non-negotiables. What are the absolute “no”s you won’t compromise on? It could be gambling, tobacco, controversial weapons—whatever it is. It could be environmental concerns, or how companies treat their staff. Maybe you don’t want to invest in any company that doesn’t have a minimum number of women on the board or in senior leadership.
Once you’ve figured out your non-negotiables, then look at your financial goals. For example, if your goal is retirement and you want to invest in ETFs to get there, then you can look for ETFs that exclude your non-negotiables. It’s probably not going to be perfect—you might find funds or ETFs that include something you’re not totally comfortable with, but they don’t include any of your absolute “no”s. So you decide to go with it.
It’s about balancing your financial goals with what you need to invest in to achieve those goals, and then finding a tilt or lens—like a company or ETF—that suits your ethics.
Jess:
Yeah, that makes sense. Good tips there—just finding that balance.
Victoria Harris:
And it’s important to realise your KiwiSaver plays a big role here. If your financial goal is retirement, and you’ve written down your non-negotiables, then check your KiwiSaver fund. If it’s investing in things that go against your values, switch your KiwiSaver. You want to make sure it aligns.
A lot of people forget about their KiwiSaver, and it’s usually the biggest investment they have—or the one that can really move the needle. So make sure you include that and know you can change it.
Jess:
I was going to ask—are there ethical KiwiSaver and superannuation funds in New Zealand? Because KiwiSaver is sort of set up for most of us and just runs as we get older. I don’t even know mine, which is really bad. How would someone check if their KiwiSaver is ethical?
Victoria Harris:
Mindful Money is a great place to start. Also, just ask your KiwiSaver provider. If you’re with a fund and you’re not sure, ask them what their ethical investing practices are.
Jess:
Yeah, cool.
Victoria Harris:
Ask them if the fund you’re in invests in things like gambling, tobacco, weapons—whatever your concerns are. They have a responsibility to answer your questions, because it’s your money.
One thing I would say when choosing a KiwiSaver fund is to also look at the returns. You don’t want to sacrifice performance massively just to invest in alignment with your values. You’re essentially paying someone to grow your money. Yes, you want them to grow it ethically, but they still need to grow it.
Jess:
Yeah, that’s a good point. Some questions to ask.
Victoria Harris:
Yes, definitely.
Jess:
I was just interested—if someone’s listening to this and they’ve been investing for a while but never really thought about ethical investing, how can they go back and look at their current investments and change things up? Is it just a matter of looking into the companies they’ve invested in?
Victoria Harris:
Yeah, I think it depends—do you mean the companies themselves or the funds they’re invested in?
Jess:
Yeah, like say they’re investing in shares and have never considered ethics before. How could they go back and reassess their strategy?
Victoria Harris:
Good question. So, at a company level—if you’re investing in individual stocks and want to know if they’re ethical—it does take a bit more work. You’ll need to read the company’s annual report. Most companies also publish a sustainability report or a corporate responsibility report, which gives more insight into their environmental and social impact. These are usually separate from the financials and are a really good read.
In terms of funds, there are some great certifications that have come out over the years. For example, the Responsible Investment Association of Australasia (RIAA) is a well-respected benchmark. It ensures that funds aren’t just saying they’re ethical—they’re actually adhering to external standards.
Another one is the UN PRI—the United Nations Principles for Responsible Investment. And then there’s B Corp certification, which is quite rigorous. To be B Corp certified, a company has to meet high standards for environmental and social performance. So these certifications help everyday investors like us know whether a fund is genuinely ethical or just saying it is.
Jess:
That’s so good to know.
Victoria Harris:
Yeah, because any fund could say it’s ethical and just include one ethical company to tick the box. So it’s great that there are standards in place now to help make it easier for everyday investors.
Jess:
Yeah. I’m curious—there are so many platforms now that make investing easy. Do any of them guide people towards ethical investing? Or do you still have to do all the research yourself?
Victoria Harris:
It’s mostly up to you to do the work. Some platforms might help a little, but a good starting point is to look for buzzwords—like “responsible,” “sustainable,” “ethical,” or “ESG” in the name of a fund or ETF. Those are great indicators and help narrow down your options.
Instead of starting from a huge pool of investments, those keywords can help you focus on a smaller, more manageable group. Then, once you’ve got your values and non-negotiables sorted, you can look under the hood of those options and see if any of them include companies that go against your values.
Jess:
Good tip on the buzzwords. That would definitely make it a bit easier and hopefully less overwhelming—just being able to scan and spot those terms.
Victoria Harris:
Exactly.
Jess:
Could you explain what greenwashing is? That’s a term that kept coming up when I was researching this episode, and I couldn’t quite get my head around it.
Victoria Harris:
Yes! I was actually going to mention it earlier. There are so many funds and companies now that know people are looking for ethical options, so they use those buzzwords to attract investors—even if they’re not truly ethical.
Greenwashing is when a company or fund tries to make itself look more eco-friendly or sustainable than it actually is. It’s essentially pulling the wool over investors’ eyes—dollying itself up to look like something it’s not.
We see it in marketing all the time. A product might say “sugar-free” but be packed with other unhealthy ingredients. Or Coca-Cola, for example, released a stevia range with a green label instead of red. We instantly associate green with being healthy or good for the planet. You’ll see washing powder with green leaves on the packaging—even if it’s not environmentally friendly.
Jess:
Yeah, I’ve seen that, so many companies using waterfalls and trees in their ads for no reason! Yeah, and it makes your brain think—is it really?
Victoria Harris:
Exactly. Companies have cottoned on to this. That wall of demand I mentioned earlier—investors wanting to invest more ethically, especially younger investors—has made companies think, “OK, how do we capitalise on this?” And the way they do that is by dressing themselves up to look as green or ethical as possible.
That’s why standards are so important when it comes to funds. They’re there to say, “Actually, no—you can’t call yourself a sustainability fund unless you meet certain criteria.” Companies might come out and say, “We’re a sustainable fund,” but when you look under the hood, you realise they’re not. These standards help make things less muddy for investors by calling out companies and funds that aren’t walking the talk.
The best thing about investing today is social media. If companies are found to be greenwashing, they’ll be absolutely ridiculed online. That’s a good thing. Yes, social media has its downsides, especially for young people, but the speed at which news spreads globally means companies are now going the other way. They want to be open and vocal and actually put their money where their mouth is.
Jess:
Yeah.
Victoria Harris:
So it’s something to be aware of. I think the easiest thing is to look at what the company does operationally. Rather than getting into all the detail, ask: at the core of its business, does it do something that doesn’t align with my values? If so—see you later. I don’t care if part of your business donates to charity or does good in other areas. If the core of your operations doesn’t align with my values, I’m out.
Jess:
Such a good point. It must be so easy for them to just highlight and promote the things that make them look good, right?
Victoria Harris:
Oh yeah. The number of presentations I’ve seen where 80% of the business is drilling for oil, and they spend hours talking about the 20% that’s planting trees or doing something green. And I’m like—hang on, what about the rest of your business?
It makes it really difficult for investors, because they don’t always have access to that kind of knowledge or information. So again, the easiest thing is to ask: what does the company do at its core? And does that align with my values? If not—see you later.
Jess:
Yeah. And I think you touched on this a little bit, but I was keen to know—what does ethical investing mean to you personally, in terms of your own investing strategy?
Victoria Harris:
For me, it’s about being more considered in my investment decisions. Back in the day, when I first started, it was all about making money. Now, I don’t know if it’s because ethical investing has gained more traction, or maybe it’s just me getting older and wiser—but I’ve realised the power of money and how much it can actually shape our world and the world we leave for future generations.
I know that might sound a bit wishy-washy, but it’s true. The more we talk about this, the better the world will be.
What also frustrates me is that everyone has different values. And when people try to project their values onto others and expect them to invest the same way, it creates tension. It’s OK if you and I have different values and invest in different things. That’s fine.
To assume everyone will invest the same way is naïve. Broadly, there are some key values that people tend to align on. But there are also areas where people are willing to accept certain things or lean one way or the other.
Take AI, for example. Are you OK with the negative impacts of AI if it can be used to predict cancer and save lives? Or if it can make education more accessible and affordable? These are the kinds of questions we need to ask ourselves.
Victoria Harris:
So it’s like—there’s this concept, and you might be like, “No, I’m not OK with that,” and I might be like, “Actually, I am.” And that’s OK. I think we shouldn’t get so hung up or competitive about the fact that our values differ. Broadly, our values might align, but when it comes down to the nitty-gritty, they might not align on certain investments—and that’s OK.
Jess:
Yeah.
Victoria Harris:
When people get frustrated with others for investing in things that don’t align with their own values, I think it’s important to remember that there are enough people in the world with similar ethics and values that we’ll continue to see this wave—this trend—towards a better world. But yes, you need to be clear about where you draw the line, and continue to educate yourself and learn.
Jess:
Yeah, I was going to say—you’ve got to be really careful about influencers on social media when it comes to investing. Their values aren’t necessarily yours, so just because they’re doing something doesn’t mean you have to follow them.
Victoria Harris:
Exactly. 100%.
Jess:
And just to wrap up, are there any myths about ethical investing that you’d like to bust?
Victoria Harris:
Yes—one of the biggest myths, which has thankfully been demystified, is that you can’t invest ethically and still get good returns. For a long time, people believed that ethical investing meant sacrificing performance. But we’ve seen over the years that companies in clean energy, or those with strong social practices—especially those that looked after their staff during COVID—have actually outperformed those that didn’t.
Jess:
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Harris:
So yes, that myth has been busted. And now we’ve got a generation of investors coming through who will only invest this way. They’re making decisions involving billions of dollars, and they’re incredibly knowledgeable. Gen Z is so much more informed than millennials were at their age. So I think this is going to be a lasting trend—not a short-lived one.
Jess:
Yeah, there’s so much more information out there. The younger generations are coming in with a world of knowledge.
Victoria Harris:
Exactly. Like I said, ethical investing will probably just become “investing.” And there’ll likely be something else we haven’t even seen yet that will emerge in the next few years.
Jess:
Thank you so much for your time today, Vic. I found this really, really interesting. If people have been listening all the way through and want to find out more about you, The Curve, and what you’re doing in this space—where can they go?
Victoria Harris:
Yes! Our Instagram is https://www.instagram.com/thecurveplatform. We’ve got incredible free resources there. We also have a podcast called The Curve Podcast, which you can find on Spotify. Our website is https://www.thecurveplatform.com, and we’ve got an amazing investing club with a range of courses—perfect for beginners. Plus, there’s a great community of women learning about investing, and you get direct access to me. So if you’re keen to join, head to any of those platforms. Hope to see you there!
Jess:
Yes—and your podcast is great too! If people want bite-sized tips and insights, it’s a great tool to chuck on in the car and learn on your commute.
Victoria Harris:
Yes! We try to sneak in a few laughs too. We want finance to be fun.
Jess:
That’s the thing—if you’re going to listen in your free time, you want it to be interesting as well as educational.
Victoria Harris:
Exactly!
Jess:
Thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it—I learnt so much.
Victoria Harris:
Thanks for having me!
Jess:
And thank you so much for listening. If you want to find out more about ethical investing, head to our website: https://www.fma.govt.nz. We’ll see you next time.
The content of this podcast is of a general nature and is not financial advice. The thoughts and opinions of guest speakers are not those of the FMA. The FMA recommends that our audience seek advice in respect to investing from a regulated financial adviser. The FMA does not accept any responsibility for loss that any person may suffer from following this content.
